nota simple/escritura

[anne]

I recently enquired about a property in Arboleas. Having been advised from a solicitor not to touch properties without an escritura and knowing a little of the problems in the area from a relative, I asked the estate agent advertising the property if the villa had its escritura. The reply was, "We check all the properties and now according to a new law have to hold all property documents for all properties. This is proving to be a paperwork nightmare but means that all properties are legal with up to date nota simples". Can someone advise on this please - I assume the nota simple is something different from the escritura. I understand the escritura is the title deeds so then what is the nota simple?

[BillyBob]

My Nota Simple is an exact copy of my Escritura but without the outside cover ?

[josefine]

The Copia Simple is an official copy of the Escritura -as stated above ....
The Nota simple is an informative document that can be obtained from the Registry Office and gives the details of the property that has been registered along with ownership details and information about any outstanding debts on the property. You can obtain this yourself at the registry office or ask any Competent estate agent to get one for you for a small admin fee.

A new decree was introduced in the year 2005 indicating that Estate Agents must hold a recent copy of this document if they are promoting a property for sale.

There seems to be a mad panic about this law at the moment and there are lots of people who do not know a nota simple from a copia simple ( and a lot of them are "estate agents") - quite a worry !!

[chumbo]

So this document does not take the place of an escritura and does not confer any legality on the property apart from implication? It seems a waste of time to have it to me; but then again the whole system seems to be a bureaucratic nightmare.

[josefine]

:confused:
The Nota Simple gives us the registration details of the property, such as when it was registered, any debts, ownership, any incumbrances etc. These details are important when purchasing, especially when a Mortgage is required, and are not shown on the Escritura. It is now obligatory for agents selling a property to hold a current copy of this document so as you can imagine the estate agents are beavering away trying to get copies and pouring money into the Government coffers while property sales are slack.....

[digifidd]

As far as I was aware, if you want a mortgage on a property now, you need the certificate of habitation or LFO. This will only have been issued if the build was given permissions and all licenses had been granted. I hope estate agents have to have these too!!!

[alboxian]

I just want to know what an LFO IS. Licencia de what.:confused:

[digifidd]

LFO = License of First Occupation (granted by the town hall on a new build if everything has been signed off by an architect as built correctly re the permissions and to the right standard - that's the idea anyway!).

We had a nota simple for our house, but it most definately isn't legal. It also has a catastral ref and is registered with Huercal Overa land registry , but it still isn't legal. We also have a mortgage on said property, but it definately is not legal.

Why??? No permissions, built on rural land (although our catastral info says urbana) and so no LFO or Habitation cert. Plus the Albox Urbanismo office says it's illegal for reasons given.

[anne]

Digifidd - are there any legal properties in Arboleas or Albox then and if so, where does one find them?

[BillyBob]

Anne, There are some legal properties, and more are in the process of being legalised at this moment in time - how do you find them - with difficulty !

My property is legal according to the Solicitors / Architects / Catastral / Mortgage Company / Local Rates Office - but not the local Town Hall because I have no Cert of 1st Habitacion.

On enquiring two weeks ago I was informed there was another Cert which is instead of, and overcomes the problem of not having a Cert of 1st Habitacion - so I duly did all I had to do and collected all the relevant documents { I had them all except one which we obtained from Huercal Overa } in order to make an application for this new Cert - result after submitting them to the Town Hall - unfortunately I don't quality for this Certificate either. Maybe there is another certificate which overcomes the problem of not having the Cert which overcomes the problem of not having the 1st Cert ???? - It seems there's always one other piece of paper you need - that is unless you're Spanish because then they don't seem to bother about any at all.

[digifidd]

Hi Anne,

Fully legal properties can be difficult to guarantee in the area you are looking to buy. I'm not saying there aren't any, but beware!

For example, our property has a registered escritura (this means the Catastral office in Almeria and the Registry in Huercal Overa reckon we are legal). We have a mortgage on this property granted by a local Albox bank, we pay our IBI (local land tax), have a water contract.

However, our house is not legal - despite having been told otherwise by 2 local lawyers (abogados), 2 banks and having had the paperwork checked at 2 notaries.

Our property was built on rural land (agricultural) and was not authorised to be built on. Our catastral paperwork says the land classification is urbana, so should be ok to build on. It's not the case.

Our developer did not get planning permissions to build, went ahead anyway and so we do not have a license of 1st occupation or habitation certificate.

Our house is apparently over 4 years old and could have obtained a certificate under this rule, however it does not get a way from the fact that it is illegal as it was built on the wrong type of land without permissions! No amount of paperwork will cover over that problem.

So you see, illegality comes in many varying forms. Even illegal houses can have some of the paperwork that could prove legality, but it does not make it so.

As I have mentioned on the other forum. Do some sleuthing at the town hall yourself (with interpreter - it will be money well spent!) and use a fully independant, out of the area lawyer.

Put in writing what checks you want him/her to do. In Spain, they like to do lots of business verbally, however safeguard yourself - put your instructions in writing and never pay in cash even if your lawyer recommends it and make sure you fully declare the amount you pay when you sign at the notary, especially if you do need a mortgage.

Good luck with the house hunting.

[Maria A.]

--It seems there's always one other piece of paper you need - that is unless you're Spanish because then they don't seem to bother about any at all.--

I object to this suggestive phrase.

It is just that the Spanish (homeowners) don't bother about the paperwork themselves. They have the same obligations and duties as foreigners, but just don't make such a big issue of it. Don't worry, be happy!

[digifidd]

Sorry Maria, but that 'big issue' of paperwork could mean the difference between buying an illegal house or not.

Our Spanish developer/neighbour, chose not to get his paperwork together when building our house, ie by not getting permission to build. He also built knowingly on rural land. He did not fulfill his obligations or duties to the town hall or us and now we have an illegal property.

[BillyBob]

Maria, sorry you have taken umbrage about my true statement - all I'm trying to do is make prospective buyers aware that all that seems OK is not as it seems.

As for not worrying and being happy I am doing my best - but tell me are you not worrying and are you happy because you don't have the problems we have ???????

[Maria A.]

You have to understand that I'm ABSOLUTELY NOT defending the attitude of some Spanish, it's just to explain to you the difference (cultural/historical??) of approaching a problem.

Indeed I personally have no problems with ilegal property.
But I do know a lot of Spanish that own ilegal properties and don't worry in the least, and don't even try to change it. It just doesn't matter to them.
This indifference is one of the reasons why the Spanish society is as it is: it seems absolutely impossible in Spain to anticipate to problems, and when they're there, nobody bothers to solve them. I'm afraid no foreigner will be able to change this.

--Don't worry, be happy--
I ask you: isn't the laid-back society for many foreigners an important reason to move from over-stressed and over-regulated countries to Spain? Well, here's one of the consequences of this relaxed attitude of life, which, in the end, a lot of foreigners cannot cope with.

[Eric]

.... here..here!!!!!

well said!!......

[digifidd]

So Maria, are you saying that the Spanish who own illegal properties wouldn't care if their only home (if it is that) could be demolished, thus losing all their money?

I cant imagine them being laidback about that!! The Spaniards whom I met cared very much about how much money and property they owned, so much so that they were prepared to fleece foreign buyers to acquire them.

I'm not saying all Spanish are like this, but it doesn't help when Spanish laws/procedures are there and not abided by, especially by the Spanish.

Not until it suits them, anyway.

I like a laidback lifestyle as much as the next person, but not at the expense of integrity and honesty.

[BillyBob]

Maria, Most Spanish people are not bothered about having an illegal property because they know it is never going to be sold - it will only be passed on and on and on to members of their family.

EVERY English person who has bought over here has been used to buying properties in the UK where the situation as it is in Albox now would have never got off the drawing board. Builders would and are not allowed to build without proper permissions and then use the excuse of saying to the owner - You gave me instructions to build the house for you - You are the promoter, and it was up to you to get the correct permissions.

I may add Maria I am not in the above category but I sympathise with them, things will probably come right at some time in the future - unfortunately this will be to late for some of the people out here who have no family to leave their properties to, and now cannot move on to do other things that they may wish to do ?

[chumbo]

I suppose I might as well put my two-bob's worth in.
As I mentioned on another thread I'm just coming up to the two year anniversary of paying my deposit and still no sign of a property. In the UK questions would have been asked in Parliament by now, I mean it.
Maria you are dead right about the Spanish way and it's that lack of concern for 'legality' that has given me my long wait. Suddenly the family want the money for their casa and I have it. However it's my Spanish abogada that wants to get everything correct before I take possession, so there's at least one Spanish person that's prepared to worry.
And that is exactly what I pay her for. In the meantime I try to stay happy:o